Angeline, a very warm welcome to Washington Post Live.
MS. BOULLEY: Oh, miigwech. I’m very thankful to be here.
MS. STEAD SELLERS: We’re pleased to have you. So let’s start with this new book. It’s set 10 years after your bestseller, “Firekeeper’s Daughter,” and you said, I think, that the main character was based on Lara Croft from “Tomb Raider.” Tell me about her. Tell me about that main character and how she came to be.
MS. BOULLEY: Sure. Sixteen-year-old Perry Firekeeper-Birch, who readers met her when she was a six-year-old twin and a niece of Daunis, the main character in “Firekeeper’s Daughter,” and the story really came to me. Perry popped into my head. I was living in Washington, D.C., at the time, out for a walk, wondering if I had another story in me for my second book, and she just popped into my head and said, “I stole everything.” They think she did and even stuff they don’t know about yet, and I thought, who is this person, and what’s going on?
And so, sure enough, she–I ran into the nearest business and grabbed a piece of paper and a pen, and I just started writing. And yeah, she was sitting in a police station waiting for her parents to pick her up, and she’s covered in blood, and she’s wondering, how did it come to this? And I knew she was like a reverse “Lara Croft: Tomb Raider,” instead of raiding tombs, that she would be raiding museums to retrieve stolen ancestors and sacred items and bring them back home. And being 16 years old, none of her heists go the way that she intends.
MS. STEAD SELLERS: [Laughs] So she really took life on this Washington street, and that brings me to some of the big issues you deal with here. I mean, it’s a work of fiction, but you bring up Native repatriation and the crisis of missing and murdered Indigenous women. Tell me about the importance of those very key issues to a work of fiction.
MS. BOULLEY: Well, they’re linked. I mean, the ownership of Indigenous bodies, past and present, and I really looked to connect them through this story. You know, Indigenous women face the highest rates of violence, including sexual violence, and then, two, the–there are so many of our ancestors that are in museum collections and just the–even though there’s that federal law that says you need to return these, so many–too many museums and institutions just drag their feet. Ad it’s all about control over Indigenous bodies, Indigenous knowledge, and yeah, I consider it connected through the trafficking of Indigenous women, which–let’s be honest–it’s happened since 1492.
MS. STEAD SELLERS: Right. So this book allows you really to reconnect with your roots, your heritage in the Ojibwe community. Did you learn anything that surprised you as you did research for the book?
MS. BOULLEY: I was surprised to find out that 33 years after the passage of the Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act, which became law in 1990, the Congressional Budget Office had predicted that it would take 10 years to repatriate all of the ancestral remains back to tribes that were requesting them, and as of September 2022, there were still more than half that were remaining in institutions than had been repatriated. There’s like 108,000 sets of remains, and they need to be returned back.
MS. STEAD SELLERS: So, Angeline, did the foot that you have or had in Washington, D.C., help you with that research for a work of fiction?
MS. BOULLEY: It did. I mean, being–you know, when I lived in Washington, D.C., having access to people, subject-matter experts, and being able to discuss, you know, different topics and this source leads to this source, that was really convenient. But a lot of the research for my second book was done after I had left Washington, D.C., and really reconnected a lot with people in Michigan who are doing repatriation work.
MS. STEAD SELLERS: Well, let’s go back to your early work. You did day jobs in the tribe when you were growing up. What was that like, and what kind of jobs were you doing?
MS. BOULLEY: Well, I was raised downstate Michigan, and so my dad’s–you know, our tribe is in Sault Ste. Marie, Michigan. So we would spend time every summer, you know, spending time with grandparents and cousins, but it wasn’t until I was an adult married with three children, working for my tribe, that I lived and worked in Sault Ste. Marie. So, you know, that was just a really great place to be, and I loved getting close with my cousins and spending time with elders, and it really informed the stories that I write.
MS. STEAD SELLERS: You’ve said that the power of fiction has allowed you to reach more people than ever before, and you’ve had these key jobs in education and other things. Tell me about that power of fiction, how you’ve harnessed it, and whether it also surprised you in its ability to reach people.
MS. BOULLEY: I wasn’t surprised, because story is how we learn what it means to be anishinaabe, how we learn to be human, and, you know, I was–I feel like I could give a lecture about repatriations, but who is it really going to reach? But a story and characters that you care about, you know, them experiencing the frustration of trying to repatriate with universities and museums and institutions that are just determined to hold onto ancestral remains, and more importantly to them, the sacred items, the funerary items that they were buried with, that’s what they truly want to hold onto. And as long as they can classify remains as culturally unaffiliated, they get to hold onto those items.
MS. STEAD SELLERS: So, Angeline, I’m so intrigued by this personal experience and your ability to tell stories and also your experience in education, and what do you think teachers and educators need to learn to do in order to understand better Indigenous people but, more broadly, a diversity of people and the complex cultures we are part of?
MS. BOULLEY: I feel like if the only time a teacher brings up Native Americans is during the month of November, that’s not–
MS. BOULLEY: But I understand teachers being leery and unsure of how to bring up or in include Native peoples in curriculum beyond Thanksgiving, and thankfully, there are some really great resources out there.
Debbie Reese’s blog, it’s called “American Indians in Children’s Literature,” and she does like a best-of list every year for picture books, chapter books, middle–or middle grade, young adult, graphic novel, and adult, and she really breaks down how she analyzes books to determine if this is appropriate representation or if it perpetuates stereotypes, and so that’s a free resource available to teachers.
I also commend states like Montana. Michigan has really come a long way too in doing like Indian education for all, where it’s not just improving public schools for Native American children, but it’s educating every student about Native Americans and emphasizing the connection with local tribes and local communities.
MS. STEAD SELLERS: We also have some very prominent figures in government now, including Deb Haaland, Secretary of the Interior. Do they make a difference as role models in how people perceive Native communities?
MS. BOULLEY: Absolutely. You know, Secretary Haaland is one of my role models, and I remember when she was first elected as a representative from New Mexico, and her and Sharice Davids, that they–Deb Haaland had saved her seat in Congress with a blanket, and it was like how Native, how Native is that, and she, you know, had replied back on social media like, “Yep, absolutely, I did that,” saving her seat by putting a blanket over the seat.
You know, and she’s just taken such a leadership role in so many issues with the Department of Interior that impact Native peoples, Native rights, Native communities, and these are items that have long been given lip service. And I feel like she’s the first secretary that has actually committed to do more than ever before.
MS. STEAD SELLERS: Your first book, “Firekeeper’s Daughter,” has been made into a Netflix series through the Obama’s production company, and I think it’s been held up in the writers’ strike, but can you tell us a little bit about that series and the process of changing your work of fiction into a Netflix series?
MS. BOULLEY: Sure. A few weeks after my book deal, Hollywood came calling, and I was able to talk with several different development companies that were interested in adapting “Firekeeper’s Daughter” for the big screen or for series, and really, Higher Ground Productions, which was started by President Barack and Michelle Obama, you know, I just loved how we both viewed representation as such a core value, and that my wish was to see Native creative talent, not just in front of the camera but behind it in the writers’ room and at every level of production. And they were completely on board with that.
And so what I know of right now is that there is a head writer and a showrunner who produced a–or who wrote a script that Netflix and Higher Ground loves, but in support of the writers’ strike, all of that has come to a halt. And I stand with the Writers Guild of America to support writers.
MS. STEAD SELLERS: And have you–you mentioned that you wanted to have–screen everybody from as many people as possible in the production who were from Native communities. Has that also happened, or is that happening?
MS. BOULLEY: I believe so. I am making my suggestions of people that–you know, that I know of and that do excellent work and forwarding those names, but Higher Ground is very savvy, and they’re already tuned into networks of Native screenwriters and directors and people throughout production.
MS. STEAD SELLERS: So let’s talk a minute about the Cannes Film Festival where a Martin Scorsese film that focuses on Indigenous populations got, I think, a nine-minute standing ovation. What does it mean to you to see that kind of recognition of art in all sorts of different kinds that really grows out of and belongs to Native communities?
MS. BOULLEY: It means the world, and, you know, it’s based on an incredible book, “Killers of the Flower Moon” by David Grann, I believe, and that book focuses on the birth of the FBI. And I’m very glad that Osage leadership said the focus is on Osage community members and what happened, and it resulted in, I believe, a rewrite and a refocusing. Leonardo DiCaprio learned to speak the Native language, and I think that’s what happens when you make a commitment to tell stories from a group that had not had their story told from their perspective. And I think it results in art that transcends a movie.
It actually, I believe, says something about story sovereignty and the right we have to tell our own stories. And I cannot wait to see the movie, and I certainly–you know, Lily Gladstone, if she could play–if she could be cast as Aunt Teddie in “Firekeeper’s Daughter,” I would be the happiest anishinaabekwe in the world.
MS. STEAD SELLERS: [Laughs] But tell us also how important it is to history to have these works of popular movies and works of fiction out there.
MS. BOULLEY: Because the past and the present are connected. If we lose sight of what happened in the past and the struggles that our ancestors made for us, then not only are we likely to repeat, but they gave up so much for us, and to not live our fullest, best lives honoring their sacrifice, I think is an injustice that the present does to the past.
MS. STEAD SELLERS: Angeline, we’ve had several reader questions and–that I’d like to bring in now. The first one touches on one of those huge cultural issues. It comes from Deb Clark in Texas, and as I said, I think we could probably talk for an hour around this topic, but let’s see what Deb says and see what you have to say. Deb says, are you okay with non-Native communicators and educators doing research about issues that face Indigenous communities?
MS. BOULLEY: Absolutely, yes. I highly encourage non-Native educators to do research. My best guidance for them is to carefully consider their sources and to make sure that the sources that they are reading and referencing are Indigenous, that they’re writing and speaking to lived experience, and that the author of whether it’s fiction or non-fiction, that they are claimed by a community and not just claiming Native identity.
MS. STEAD SELLERS: So tell me a little bit more about how somebody coming in can make that distinction being claimed by a community and not just claiming Native identity.
MS. BOULLEY: I think that what’s important is to look–research the sources and to, you know, read their biography and find out where they come from, where they were educated, you know, if they reference cultural teachers, and the way of speaking about community, I think there’s kind of a shorthand language about knowing someone, that someone truly has that connection.
MS. STEAD SELLERS: So we have another question I want to ask, and this one comes from Barbara White in Minnesota, and Barbara asks a very different kind of question: I love a good mystery, including “Firekeeper’s Daughter.” Who are some of your favorite mystery authors? What a great question.
MS. BOULLEY: Yes. So I love everything that Marcie Rendon writes. She is an Ojibwe author from White Earth, and I believe she’s the most underrated Indigenous author out there, and she has this Cash Blackbear mystery series that I absolutely adore.
And I also love, of course, you know, Louise Erdrich. I love Lucy Foley, Tess Sharpe in young adult.
You know, I tend to go more towards psychological thrillers, and so yeah, just–Tommy Orange, David Heska Wanbli Weiden, Stephen Graham Jones. I mean, he veered to mystery, horror, and I actually met him. We were on a panel together in Paris at an international literary festival, and I fangirled so hard. I was tongue-tied, and I finally sputtered out, “I really like your books.” And I just felt like the most incompetent human at that point.
MS. STEAD SELLERS: But actually, right at the beginning you mentioned to me the importance of characters in telling these stories, and so what do you–do you dive into these books before you write your own book, or are you starting from a kind of blank slate? You talked about your character talking to you as you walk down a Washington street, but where does it begin? Through other mysteries or through your own imagination?
MS. BOULLEY: Through my imagination and, you know, people I’ve met, people–you know, familiar faces in my community, just, you know, drawing inspiration all around me but then making the character mine, and, you know, I even think about like what music they listen to, and, you know, I feel like if I know what songs they listen to, I feel like I have insight into them. It’s all just part of this creative process to create layered, nuanced characters that represent a full range of, you know, humans that we encounter on our reservations and in our tribal communities every day.
MS. STEAD SELLERS: Angeline, I have read that you wanted to write a book or that had the idea about writing a book when you were a teenager, and you didn’t write until you were 44. What advice would you give your former self or to other young people who have that idea about writing a book? What advice would you give your former self?
MS. BOULLEY: Hold onto that spark of, you know, that creative idea that just won’t let you go, hold onto it, listen to it, nurture it, and see what happens. I am the poster child for tenacity and for wonderful things happening after age 40.
But yes, I had the idea at 18, and I think if I had tried to write “Firekeeper’s Daughter” at 18, it would’ve been a very smooshy romance novel–
MS. STEAD SELLERS: [Laughs]
MS. BOULLEY: –and that’s not what the story warranted.
MS. STEAD SELLERS: No, but–
MS. STEAD SELLERS: So I’m thinking more broadly where at this moment of incredible polarization in this country and you are writing a book that, in a sense, introduces people to a culture they may not be familiar with. It’s a bridge-building book. How much do you see fiction narrative as a means of overcoming these great divides?
MS. BOULLEY: Story is how we tap into our humanity. You know, James Joyce is quoted with in the particular, we find the universal. And when we censor or hold back those particular voices, we–you know, we lose that opportunity to see the universality in all people, and, you know, I’m really thankful that I wrote a story that was so specific about my community and this one Ojibwe girl. But the people outside of my community who–you know, the story resonated with, and so I just think there are people out there whose stories have not been told and now is not the time to squelch those. Now is the time we need to amplify diverse stories from underrepresented voices.
MS. STEAD SELLERS: Angeline, I’d like to finish with a question that’s very dear to my own heart. A magazine story I edited early on in my career was about the death of Native languages, the loss of Native language. How does that affect storytelling?
MS. BOULLEY: Well, our native languages, it’s more than just words. It’s a world view. It’s, you know, how we view the world, and so I think that efforts to revitalize native languages–you know, I certainly think there should be more funding towards that and more encouragement of that. And there are more resources now than ever before. For example, free resources, my tribe in particular does a free online class for beginners. You know, Bay Mills Community College in Brimley, Michigan, they have an immersion institute to learn Anishinaabemowin, and I believe Dr. Anton Treuer was instrumental in Rosetta Stone coming out with a version of, you know, Anishinaabe Ojibwe Mowin.
And so I think it’s people who love language and know how vitally important it is, using different–using technology to increase access to people wherever they may be.
MS. STEAD SELLERS: Angeline Boulley, thank you so much for joining us today, and thank you. We look forward to not only learning more about “Warrior Girl Unearthed” but to the next book too.
MS. BOULLEY: Oh, miigwech. Thank you so much.
MS. STEAD SELLERS: [Laughs] Thank you.
And thank you to our audience. You know where to find more programming, WashingtonPostLive.com. That’s WashingtonPostLive.com. Thanks so much for joining us today. I’m Frances Stead Sellers.